Speaking at the SCAD Savannah Film Festival at the end of October, Rian Johnson talks about his career, how his brain “will always be in Star Wars”, his dislike of AI, and what the future holds post the release of Wake Up Dead Man: A Knives Out Mystery.
Johnson scaled up after Brick by refining his recipe, proving its worth on expanding budgets and bolder canvasses. His sophomore feature, the heartfelt caper The Brothers Bloom, underperformed critically and commercially, but with the steadfast support of producer Bergman, he then got a shot at helming a studio movie in the midbudget sci-fi thriller Looper(again starring Gordon-Levitt). “I definitely should have been shut down after Brothers Bloom,” Johnson cracks. “I came into the writing of Looper feeling like, ‘OK, I have to hit this one out of the park because I might not get another shot.’ ” The movie won screenwriting critics’ awards, topped 90 percent on Rotten Tomatoes and grossed more than $176 million worldwide — nearly six times its budget.
It’s hard to say it’s been anything but smooth sailing ever since for Johnson, who went on to helm one of the greatest episodes in TV history, Breaking Bad‘s “Ozymandias,” and the middle installment of Star Wars‘ sequel trilogy, The Last Jedi, which divided fandom. “We made that movie in this beautiful, fearless little bubble, and the reality is, once you dive in and start doing the creative work, there isn’t a lot of room in your head for the notion of external pressure,” Johnson says.
Yet while Last Jedi made good money and satisfied Lucasfilm enough for them to offer Johnson the next movie — which he politely declined — here at least was his first sustained taste of backlash. Some audience members rebelled against Jedi‘s moody take on Luke Skywalker and its meta sense of humor. “Before I made the Star Wars movie, when I was very, very active on Twitter, if someone said anything mean about me, I felt like I had to fix that,” Johnson says. Now he engages far more selectively. “Having grown up as a Star Wars fan, I think the love and the hate are two sides of the same coin, and it’s all passion for what the thing is. That doesn’t mean it’s easy to deal with when it’s coming at you in a personal way.”
Johnson had signed on to mount a fresh Star Wars trilogy in 2017, and while that plan is effectively dead, he isn’t saying goodbye yet. “A part of my brain will always be in Star Wars,” he says. “It’s so much a part of me and the way I think.”
Back then, Johnson wanted to move onto something new and came to be consumed by a world of his own creation. In 2019, Knives Out premiered as an unexpected sensation in Toronto, another example of Johnson drawing from childhood to create something universal. (It was inspired most directly by such mystery authors as Agatha Christie and Arthur Conan Doyle, whom Johnson read voraciously in high school.) Knives Out made north of $312 million when Lionsgate released it in theaters off a $40 million budget and earned Johnson his first Oscar nomination for best original screenplay.
Did the filmmaker feel the impact of hitting those major milestones on his career? He demurs: “My main sense of elevation was just, ‘Oh, that means we can make the next one.’“
No kidding. In 2021, Netflix acquired the next two Knives Out movies at the height of the streaming wars in a deal worth a staggering $469 million. He laughs knowingly when I point this out: “The last brass rings — it’s true, it’s true. It was the last helicopter out.”
While open to more Knives Out movies down the line, Johnson will next step out of the streaming bubble that’s kept him cozy amid the turmoil. He’s writing a ’70s-inspired paranoid thriller and says his goal is to distribute that movie in a traditional wide theatrical release. He knows the market has changed drastically and is prepared to meet it head-on. “Given the realities of the uncertainty of everything, how do we make these movies for a price that makes sense?” he says. “Not to say there aren’t realities in the industry — and not to say it isn’t really, really tough right now, and we swim in the same waters as everyone — but I still believe you can make something unique and interesting. That’s still the most valuable coin.”
Johnson is equipped to meet this perilous moment. He’s spent his career melding idiosyncratic creativity with commercial viability. “He always remembers that we’re doing it for an audience — it’s the thing that drives him,” Craig says. Good thing, since the industry is starved for original ideas that will actually bring people to the multiplex. Johnson wants to reach them both in his own movies and in those he helps develop through his production company, T-Street, co-founded and run with Bergman. Put another way: If he can’t figure it out, it’s hard to see who can.
“We’re really committed to finding and encouraging new voices that are, for lack of a better word, commercial in their sensibilities,” Johnson says. “We want interesting people who have something to say and who want to connect with audiences and bring people in. I think that is essential.”
Johnson is all about expanding the tent — while holding firm to his values. For example, he feels very much aligned with his buddy Guillermo del Toro’s current anti-AI media tour. “Yeah, fuck AI. It’s something that’s making everything worse in every single way — I don’t get it,” Johnson says. “I mean, I get it in a ‘This makes sense to save money by not paying artists’ way.’ But then, what the fuck are we doing? Is this where we want to be?” But even within Johnson’s circle of collaborators, there is clearly room for disagreement: Lyonne, who will remain attached as an exec producer on Poker Face should it find a home (though her role will be recast), was announced as a co-founder of an AI production company this year. Either way, the Internet can rest assured T-Street’s backing of Gordon-Levitt’s next directorial effort, which is said to explore AI and star Anne Hathaway, does not equal an endorsement.
“He’s always mentored me, and it feels like coming home,” says Gordon-Levitt.
As for right now, Johnson is trying to savor the moment. He’s enjoying the awards trail — pockets around the world, like here in Savannah, where he can meet, bond and gossip with fellow filmmakers and speak frankly about the state of the medium he so treasures. On this round, he’s enjoyed getting to know Celine Song (Materialists) and Nia DaCosta (Hedda). His friendship with del Toro, in the awards race with Frankenstein, has deepened: “He has really inspired me to make more connections. It’s something that he puts a lot of value in. It’s incredible, the energy that he has for people.”
Read the interview in full here. Wake Up Dead Man: A Knives Out Mystery comes to cinemas from November 28th, and streams on Netflix from December 12th.
Image: Austin Hargrave
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